Posted by: Francois Tremblay | September 28 2009

“Anarcho”-capitalists support sexual harassment: more on Block’s lunacy…

So I posted that quote from Walter Block about sexual harassment being AOKed by property theory… and I have been told of the publication it’s from, The Libertarian Forum. I thought, well, maybe in context it seems more rational. As it turns out, I was totally wrong. It is actually worse than the quote indicated.

But the sad thing is, it really shows the logical consequences of the belief in property. Once you accept that much degree of control over other people’s actions, then you can justify any degree of control. “Anarcho”-capitalists will complain that Block’s ravings are not indicative of their beliefs, but they will remain utterly unable to explain why he’s wrong without contradicting their own beliefs (in fact, some ancaps who have talked to Noor about this have said that they agree with Block, which shows how utterly bankrupt their ideology is). Please keep in mind that Walter Block is one of the foremost representants of the ancap ideology.
(bold is mine, and all remaining errors are the fault of Acrobat Reader)

Another type of pinching or sexual harassment is that between a secretary and her boss. Although to many people, and especially to many people in the women’s liberation movement, there is no real difference between this pinching and the pinching that occurs on the street, the fact is that the pinching that takes place between a secretary and her boss, while objectionable to many women, is not a coercive action. It is not a coercive action like the pinching that takes place in the public sphere because it is part of a package deal: the secretary agrees to all aspects of the job when she agrees to accept the job and especially when she agrees to keep the job. A woman walking along a public sidewalk, on the other hand. can by no means be considered to have given her permission, or tacitly agreed to begin pinched. The street is not the complete private property of the pincher, as is the office. On the contrary, if the myths of democracy are to be given any credence at all, the streets belong to the people. All the people. Even including women.

There is a serious problem with considering pinching or sexual molestation in a privately owned office or store to be coercive. If an action is really and truly coercive, it ought to be outlawed. But if pinching and sexual molestation are outlawed in private places, this violates the rights of those who voluntarily wish to engage in such practices. And there is certainly nothing coercive about any voluntary sex practices between consenting adults. The proof of the voluntary nature of an act in a private place is that the person endangered (the woman, in the cases we have been considering) has no claim whatsoever to the private place in question, the office or the store. If she continues to patronize or work at a place where she is molested, it can only be voluntary. But in a public place, no such presumption exists. As we have seen, according to accepted theory at least, the public domain is owned by all, women included. It would be just as illegitimate to assume that a woman gave tacit agreement to being molested on the public street because she was walking there as it would be to assume that she gave tacit agreement to an assault in her own house, because she happened to be there.

There are many other cases of actions taken against women that are not strictly speaking, coercive. Or more exactly, there are many other instances where many women feel put upon, but where there is no coercion at all involved such as referring to women with sex organ-linked expletives. the sexual double standard mores; many rules of etiquette such as the ones concern who proceeds whom out of the elevator. the encouragement of the mental capacity of boys and discouragement of girls, the societal opprobrium of women participating in “men’s” athletic activities; the pedestals that women are placed upon. There are two important points to be made with regard to these insults and other exacerbations which do not constitute coercion. 1) Although considered reprehensible by many, none of these actions actually constitute coercion, therefore it would be illegitimate to outlaw them. Any attempt to outlaw them would involve the mass violation of rights of other individuals in the society. After all, it is the right of free speech that gives us the right not to utter things that everyone agrees with – which do not need free speech protection in any case, but the right to utter reprehensible things, things in poor taste, boorish things. 2) To a much greater degree than realized by many, certainly to a much greater degree than realized by many who consider themselves advocates of women’s liberation, these reprehensible but non-coercive actions are engendered by reprehensible coercive activities. Were these coercive activites to cease, the free market would tend to rid us of many of these reprehensible but non-coercive acts.

Let us consider the case of bosses pinching secretaries and see how the market would tend to eliminate such unwanted activity, were the coercive and reprehensible activity of taxation to support government bureaucracy eliminated. In order to see this, we must first understand what the labor economist calls “compensating differentials”. A compensating differential is an amount of money just necessary to compensate an employee for the psychic losses that go with a job. For instance, consider two job opportunities. One is in an air-conditioned office, with a good view, with pleasant surroundings and pleasant companions: The other is in a damp, dank basement, surrounded by evil smelling fellow workers. Now there is some wage differential large enough to attract most people into accepting the less pleasant job. This will vary for different people, depending upon their relative tastes for the working conditions in the two places. There might even be a negative compensating differential for those who prefer the basement job. They would be willing to take a salary cut rather than move to the office job.

The same analysis can be applied to the case of the office pincher. On the assumption that all women would prefer not to be pinched, and that bosses vary in their desires to so indulge, there will be a whole range of wage rates paid to otherwise equally productive secretaries, depending on the proclivity of their bosses to engage in sexual harassment. There will be a positive relationship between the amount of sexual harassment and the wage rate that the bosses find thay must pay. But now contrast the boss of a private business with the boss in a government bureaucracy. Even on the assumption that both bosses on the average have the same proclivity to engage in sexual harassment, it is clear that the private boss will have to pay for his little gambols, while the public one will not. The secretaries of both private and public pinchers will have to earn more than the secretaries of the non-pinchers. The compensating differential. The main difference between the private and the public pincher is that the extra money comes out of tax monies for the latter and out of his own money for the former. Even in the case of a private boss-pincher who is not the ultimate owner of the business, the same applies, only now slightly more indirectly. The ultimate owner of the business, in addition to losing money if he himself is a pincher, also loses money if any of his executives are pinchers. So in addition to having a monetary incentive to cut down on his own pinching, he also has a monetary incentive to try to stop all the bosses in his company from so doing.

This might not seem like much of an incentive to stop pinching. But it is an improvement over the public case where these disincentives are completely lacking. This way of looking at the problem, however, has more merit than might be readily apparent. One reason pinching does not come to an abrupt end even in the private market is because many women are by no means unalterably opposed to being pinched, as we have been assuming. But the analysis can be applied to the more realistic cases where women are being harassed and mistreated and do object.

Feel free to reproduce this Block quote in part or in total, in any media you can get your hands on. Spread the word. Digg it!

NOTE to all the ancaps who are itching to reply that “sexual harassment is a form of aggression and is simply wrong”: that’s exactly our point. Capitalist property theory allows any form of injustice as long as it’s done “on one’s property.” Insofar as property theory entails that sexual harassment, and other such aggression, is validated, it necessarily contradicts justice. In order for you propertarians to refute us, therefore, you can’t just say “sexual harassment is just wrong”: you need to show that property theory does not entail that sexual harassment is validated. The fact that sexual harassment is not acceptable is a problem for the propertarians, not for us.

The sexual harassment problem was not reversed by capitalism, but by a radical movement (feminism). Block’s childish theory was proven wrong.

For further analysis of this Block quote, see the entry “More baloney…” on Bowers of Paradise and the entry Does private property facilitate sexual harassment? on Division by Zero. Also see more horrid Block quotes at the Voluntary Property Blog.

For more ancap bigotry, see Stephan Kinsella Lies To Defend Bigot Hoppe, as well as the many other entries written on other blogs on the subject of Hans-Hermann Hoppe’s bigotry and its widespread support in the ancap camp.


Responses

  1. “it really shows the logical consequences of the belief in property.”

    No it doesn’t. Block is plain wrong. Unwanted touching is aggression. End of story.

  2. “Block is plain wrong. Unwanted touching is aggression. End of story.”

    And you are correct, which, as I said… really shows the (il)logical consequences of the belief in property.

  3. Again, it does not show what you think it does.

    All you have shown is that Block made an atrocious reasoning error 34 years ago.

  4. What “reasoning error” did he make? He assumed that property rights were valid, and took them to their logical conclusion. If you deny that property rights lead to such conclusions, then please tell us what error was committed.

  5. This becomes especially creepy when you remember that he also wants to privatize sidewalks.

  6. Or, to be specific, he wants to privatize every last square inch of land. Not even your own home would be safe, since it would be under the absolute dominion of your landlord. But it’s all voluntary — we can always go out into outer space!

  7. “But it’s all voluntary — we can always go out into outer space!”

    Sadly, this parody of an argument makes about as much sense as the argument that the secretary can just quit and find another job. We’re free to quit any specific job, but we’re not free to quit an exploitative system.

  8. I knew it. He actually lives in a cartoon universe. The Boss is an archetype, (among dozens that are made for men) and the secretary is one of three archetypes for women (because we just don’t have character). His cartoon universe is as old as Myth . It is born of Hierarchy, where the characters are based on Master and Servant. A Commedia dell’Arte.

    Very unimaginative, really.

  9. I made another post but it does not show up here. Reposting.

    Block: “the fact is that the pinching that takes place between a secretary and her boss, while objectionable to many women, is not a coercive action”

    Wrong. Touching without permission is aggression. Thus ends the refutation of Mr Block..

  10. “Wrong. Touching without permission is aggression. Thus ends the refutation of Mr Block..”

    George, what you seem to be forgetting is that if the secretary then protests or refuses her employer’s unwanted attention, he can fire her on the spot.

    As an Anarcho-capitalist, I’d assume you would defend his right to do so.

  11. George, this isn’t Block making a singular reasoning error in a vacuum. Like it or not, people still think that they own and have rights over others and that’s where this particular version of sexual harassment comes into play.

    To use a metaphor, you wake up and the curtains are missing, the paint is peeling, and your water’s boiling. Which one do you deal with first?

    You wouldn’t deal with a single one of those and then claim, “end of story.”

  12. I’m not an an-cap.

    Of course either party can end a voluntary arrangement at any time. This is obvious.

  13. So if the boss harasses the secretary and she refuses his advances he can fire her. And you see absolutely no problem in that?

  14. Db0, what problem do YOU see with it?

    It’s creepy and stupid and self-destructive, but it’s not aggression to sever a voluntary arrangement voluntarily.

  15. I see the problem that you making situation possible where desperate secretaries put up with sexual harassment because the alternative is worse (ie starvation). I see a problem because you end up allowing richer men make the positions they offer as a semi-harem for girls who don’t have an actual choice.

    I see a problem because you’re not in fact disagreeing with Brock and you can’t even see it. This is the intellectual bankruptcy of taking voluntarism and fetishizing it.

  16. I disagree with Block on at the very least the point where Francois wants to hang his argument that voluntaryism is bankrupt.

    What universe is this where there is only one secretary job or where all secretaries have creepy bosses? This is a straw man, a red herring.

    And what is your solution then?

  17. What universe is this where there is only one secretary job or where all secretaries have creepy bosses? This is a straw man, a red herring.

    It doesn’t have to be the case where all secretaries have creepy bosses, only the case that some harassing bosses exist and that there are far less jobs than there are secretaries which would make some of them “volunteer” to work under the “creepy bosses”. In short, the real world.

    And decide which fallacy it is before you start spamming their types.

    And what is your solution then?

    Libertarian Socialism naturally.

  18. “Like it or not, people still think that they own and have rights over others”

    Not voluntaryists!!!

    I fail to see how your metaphor relates to the discussion “New Anarchist”.

    “I see the problem that you making situation possible where desperate secretaries put up with sexual harassment”

    I did not make it possible. It is a fact of reality that some people commit aggression. I deter aggression in my life.

    “I see a problem because you’re not in fact disagreeing with Brock and you can’t even see it”

    Enlighten me or retract.

    “Libertarian Socialism naturally.”

    Non-responsive.

  19. So if the boss harasses the secretary and she refuses his advances he can fire her. And you see absolutely no problem in that?

    Why assume that the private contract system cannot possibly allow for the equivalent of a “wrongful termination” suit? I personally think that it can and would because I think Block overlooks the possibility of another “package deal” that applies to the boss.

    Of course, I reject the boss/wage setup for other reasons but, given the assumption, I don’t think it follows that free and clear firing for not submitting to immoral behavior would not lead to costs for the boss.

    I see the problem that you making situation possible where desperate secretaries put up with sexual harassment because the alternative is worse (ie starvation).

    The possibility of a situation is not sufficient to claim the illegitimacy of the conditions that make it possible. It is an impossible burden on political philosophy to require that it eliminate the possibility of immoral behavior. The absurdity of that logic is made plain when you realize that you would have to object to the very existence of any human being because of the possibility that they might act wrongly.

    It doesn’t have to be the case where all secretaries have creepy bosses, only the case that some harassing bosses exist and that there are far less jobs than there are secretaries which would make some of them “volunteer” to work under the “creepy bosses”. In short, the real world.

    Well, the real world contains a state and actually has positive laws against sexual harassment. So by “real world” you must not mean the real world but can only mean “the hypothetical world that will result in a free market anarchy with private property”. That would then require you to demonstrate why that system would end up with the distribution you claim.

    And decide which fallacy it is before you start spamming their types.

    Actually a straw man is a special type of red herring (which is simply a category of fallacies that share the characteristic of not addressing the original issue).

    Libertarian Socialism naturally.

    So what happens when the worker’s council decides that the plan only allows for 100 secretaries. Our heroine is secretary 101 and is reassigned to the assembly line next to a sexist jerk. Reassigning either worker would through off the whole plan and negatively affect the well-being of the collective. So I guess she just has to deal with it?

  20. Neverfox, I thought you were a left-libertarian. Are you trolling or is this for real?

  21. Did you even read my first two paragraphs? How can you even ask that? My problem is that I don’t stand for what I consider poor arguments and logical fallacies even if I agree with the conclusion (that Block is wrong, not that property is invalid). Don’t I have that right and isn’t that precisely what I should do in the name of truth? Fallacies are fallacies no matter who makes them and I’m pointing them out. If you can clean them up and still make your argument, I’m all for it. But don’t expect me to look the other way because we are on the same general side while you and db0 make, IMO, sloppy points.

    Like I said, Block loses me the minute he takes about wage and boss owning a business. How could my rejection of that be seen as anything but left-libertarian? I’m simply saying that private property doesn’t logically lead to the conditions you rightly fear without smuggling in another set of assumptions.

    What’s really funny is that you are basically supporting Block’s contention that the secretary has no enforceable claims against the boss if fired for not accepting the harassment. I’m actually saying that she likely does. Maybe I should be questioning your lefty credentials since you are closer to Block than I am.

  22. Neverfox, you are either trolling us or you are very confused.

    My claim is that Block’s Corollary is correct: that if property is valid, then crimes committed on one’s property are justified. But I reject property rights, so my position is the diametrical opposite of Block’s.

    If you think you can disprove the Corollary, then do so. Don’t waste our time with peripherial issues such as whether laws or rules against sexual harassment could be made. That is not relevant to the fact that property entail that sexual harassment is valid, regardless of any rules brought in to contradict that fact.

  23. I accept your challenge: Property is the right to control property so long as that control doesn’t involve aggression. I’m only allowed to use force to remove you and even then only proportional force. I have to consider the moral weight of the circumstance before determining the action I can take and weigh it against the moral value of the trespass. Pinching my secretary is neither necessary to remove her nor am I even trying to remove her. Therefore there is nothing in property theory that I can use to justify it.

    Basically, you picked a corollary that isn’t actually the proper definition of libertarian property. Block thinks it is and he’s convinced you that it is, but you are both wrong.

    Actual libertarian property principle: If I aggress against you, you have the right to coerce me in whatever way is necessary to remove me from your sphere of authority, so long as your coercion is not disproportionate to the seriousness of my aggression.

    Notice that as long as the secretary is on the property of the boss with his permission (which we can assume she is if she is on the job) then technically she isn’t aggressing. If she isn’t aggressing, she has triggered no clause in property theory that allows him to coerce her (e.g. by pinching).

    Block is trying to say that property not only allows for force in removal of aggression but also force during the time of non-aggression. That is clearly not present in libertarian property theory. Therefore the corollary you and Block propose is not libertarian and your challenge has been answered.

  24. “I accept your challenge: Property is the right to control property so long as that control doesn’t involve aggression.”

    That principle of yours invalidates capitalism, since you seemingly define aggression as anything that goes against anyone else’s rights. Therefore it is no good in defending capitalist property theory.

  25. I’m not trying to defending capitalist property theory but property theory. Several times you’ve left the word ‘capitalist’ out.

    that if property is valid, then crimes committed on one’s property are justified. But I reject property rights, so my position is the diametrical opposite of Block’s.

    No differentiation made. So which is it? Are you rejecting capitalist property or property period? I feel like you are moving the goalposts.

  26. You were talking about my position. My position is that property rights are incoherent, period. But in this specific instance, we’re talking about capitalist property.

  27. Besides, I don’t think there is such a thing as capitalist property theory. I think that libertarian property theory actually makes capitalism invalid, not the other way around.

  28. I did not make it possible. It is a fact of reality that some people commit aggression. I deter aggression in my life.

    Sorry Capitalism and Private Property are social constructs not “facts of reality.”

    Enlighten me or retract.

    Yet another right-”libertarian” who speaks like a lawyer with a stick up his arse.

    Me and others have been trying to “enlighten” you from the start of these comments. You seem impervious to it.

    Why assume that the private contract system cannot possibly allow for the equivalent of a “wrongful termination” suit?

    Because that too depends on the power differential between classes, or in our case, between the boss and potential secretaries. Thus in a wage-market where there’s far more available workers than there’s secretary positions the bosses will not offer contracts with wrongful terminations clauses any more than they will offer high wages.

    I don’t think it follows that free and clear firing for not submitting to immoral behavior would not lead to costs for the boss.

    As I said again, it depends on the state of the class war. But that’s besides the point anyway. Brock wasn’t arguing that in a theoretical contract system where wrongful termination is recognized there wouldn’t be harassment. He was arguing that such events (harassing or firing for not putting up with it) should be ok. He was making a normative statement.

    The possibility of a situation is not sufficient to claim the illegitimacy of the conditions that make it possible.

    Actually it is sufficient. If it is the social system which allows such a behaviour or which promotes immorality, then it is very logical to demand to change the social system itself. We’re not asking for perfection but merely that when weak points of a system are recognized we modify it accordingly to avoid them.

    In fact the only logical failure comes from your end when you claim that the suggested system can’t be bad because no system can be perfect.

    So by “real world” you must not mean the real world but can only mean “the hypothetical world that will result in a free market anarchy with private property”.

    You do realize that such a behaviour was normal up until the 70s and very much more the further back one goes right? You do realize that Brock’s apologetics were not written in a vacuum but precisely written because this behaviour was accepted at the time of writing and the feminist movement was attacking it, right?

    No it’s not a hypothetical world. It’s a historical fucking fact!

    I don’t care to argue against hypothetical la-la lands of free markets and perfect competitions.

    Actually a straw man is a special type of red herring

    You’re taking you advocacy of the devil a bit too far don’t you think?

    What are you saying then? That instead of being simply intellectually lazy he was being deliberately superfluous for rhetorical purposes?

    Reassigning either worker would through off the whole plan and negatively affect the well-being of the collective. So I guess she just has to deal with it?

    Talk about hypothetical examples specially-tailored to argue one’s point…

    No, she should kick the sexist’s arse and have the rest of the collective kick the sexist’s arse. And if we have a collective in which people are assigned to jobs they might hate “for the good of the collective”, disregarding their suffering, then it’s not a really good collective is it? But then again, this was a specially tailored example…

    @Francois: Neverfox is not trolling. He’s just playing devil’s advocate against a position he has misunderstood.

  29. I hope you’re right, db0.

  30. [...] harassment I posted a while back has been rediscovered by various libertarians online and  lots of criticism, analysis and defenses (of PP not Block) have been written about it. It appears as even Walter [...]

  31. Neverfox: Bravo. One man’s misunderstanding of libertarian property theory does not destroy the entire philosophy. Would it not be the same if one of the “leading lights” of mutualist or ansoc theory wrote something clearly wrong and/or insane, and I attempted to depict it as bankrupting said theory?

  32. “One man’s misunderstanding of libertarian property theory does not destroy the entire philosophy.”

    Block’s corollary is not a “misunderstanding”: it’s a logical conclusion based on the unlimited control of property theory. Because of that, it does “destroy the entire philosophy” (if one is so extremely generous as to call the vacuous ideology of ancapism a philosophy). Calling it a “misunderstanding” without proof is posturing, nothing more.

    “Would it not be the same if one of the “leading lights” of mutualist or ansoc theory wrote something clearly wrong and/or insane, and I attempted to depict it as bankrupting said theory?”

    If his point was a fundamental corollary which destroyed the entire ideology, then yes, it would be valid and would have to be either answered or accepted.

  33. Hey you guys are talking about highly esoteric stuff with little bearing on actual life. How is this helpful to your cause?

    In this theoretical world people are not allowed to agrees against other disproportionately (assuming everyone is moral and has an ethical drive, and who would police them?)

    If a guy pinches a womans bottom without her permission, and she objects, she can, and in real life if there is no state, she might get her clan to beat the boss up. The boss can fire her, but women should not work for someone and most would not because they may no taxes, prices are balanced because people use gold and silver as currency not fiat government money, cartels and monopolies do not exist, so people are more driven to be self-employed.

  34. Her CLAN? Gold and silver as MONEY? Where do you live, 19th century Nigeria?

    “Hey you guys are talking about highly esoteric stuff with little bearing on actual life”

    Sexual harassment in the workplace is highly esoteric and has little bearing on actual life?

    Get the fuck out, troll.

  35. that was supposed to say:

    In this theoretical world people are not allowed to aggress against another disproportionately (assuming everyone is moral and has an ethical drive, and who would police them?)

  36. Sincerely Franc, I think that a large majority of ancaps think that sexual harassement is a type of aggression, like the other anarchists

    But ancaps should be very careful about this issue. This illustrates some illogical consequences of an absolutist property ideology.

  37. David: I agree. That’s why I added a note near the bottom.

  38. @Neverfox

    “I think that libertarian property theory actually makes capitalism invalid, not the other way around.”

    Hummmm. Yeah but pro-property ancaps use capitalist premises to justify their ideology!

  39. I see Franc.

  40. I don’t think that Block suggests that the boss could continue to sexually harrass his secretary if he fires her, right?

  41. I don’t think so, no.

  42. [...] do not magically create ethics. David Z., of no third solution, thinks he can reinterpret Block’s Corollary (i.e. the argument that belief in property logically entails belief in criminal activities like [...]

  43. “Sexual harassment in the workplace is highly esoteric and has little bearing on actual life?”

    How is your discussion of it going to stop it? There are far bigger crimes being commited by the capitalist concept of property and the corporation, alittle sexual harrasment is just the tip of an iceberg.

  44. How is your discussion of it going to stop it?

    Acknowledging the problem is the first step in combating it.

    There are far bigger crimes being commited by the capitalist concept of property and the corporation, alittle sexual harrasment is just the tip of an iceberg.

    Right, because women’s issues are not as important as the Really Important Issues. Right.

  45. [...] anarchist. Well, if that makes him happy, good for him. As a result of this, he made a recent post that seems to illustrate my point — so at least some good will come of his change of stripes, [...]

  46. [...] 2009 at 6:34 pm On September 28th, 2009, Francois Tremblay, a former propertarian anarchist, wrote a blog piece to showcase what he currently sees to be the inexorable problems resulting from a defence of [...]

  47. [...] Peak lines up for another out… The capitalist wannabe-Block Corollary-killers just keep lining up. This time it’s Alex Peak, from Last Free Voice, who argues that [...]

  48. Francois,

    I think both you and Block are making arguments based on a flawed premise. A property right is the right to control the use of some tangible item — that’s all. If the item in question is a building or parcel of land, it then follows that the owner has the right to exclude whomever he/she pleases from the property.

    That’s as far as it goes. Yet on no logical basis I can discern, some property rights advocates (and their detractors, such as yourself) have assumed that property rights imply a right to impose whatever rules and penalties they desire on anyone found on/within the property. This is just plain silly. Yes, a property owner can say, “I allow you on my property as long as you obey these rules / submit to these indignities”; but if someone fails to follow those rules or submit to whatever the owner wishes to impose, the only legitimate recourse the property owner has is to escort the individual off the premises. THAT’S IT.

  49. So Kevin, you don’t support capitalist work contracts then? Because they sure “assume that property rights imply a right to impose whatever rules and penalties they desire on anyone found on/within the property.”

  50. Francois: the work contract is what binds the worker to follow work instructions, not the property rights. The contract worker in question may not even be receiving his work instructions from the property owner. If the worker does not follow directions to his boss’ satisfaction then he can be escorted off the property. He does not instantly become the slave of the property owner (or even his boss who may not own the property) just because he is on the property.

  51. Thank you for making my point…?


Leave a response

Your response:

Categories