Warhawk associates me with Goebbels.

In response to my long anti-war, anti-army, anti-sympathizers rant “Dear Troops Supporter: What I Believe In,” dan512 posted a comment which I think deserves some reply. Now, I rarely answer to negative comments. If they are egregiously trollish, I just remove them. If they are mundane, I just ignore them. But this one is neither: it’s downright offensive, and my gloves are off. Here is the text of that comment:

As a Jewish person, whose German grandparents were murdered in the Holocaust, reading your post fills me with sadness and with anger. I don’t know how I would react to your stupidity and ignorance if you were sitting in front of me right now, if I would spit in your face or if I would just start to cry.

“I do not believe that “they’re just doing what they’re ordered to” is an adequate rationalization for surrendering one’s moral responsibility to a group of thugs. It did not justify what the Nazi SS officers did, it did not justify what the Soviet gulag administrators did, and it does not justify what “the troops” do.”

Did you go to school? And where? Do you know anything about Europe? Do you know what happened there between 1933 and 1945? Do you have any idea what was going on in the concentration camps? Do you know what the SS did in every country the Germans conquered?

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT BY PUTTING OUR TROOPS ON ONE LEVEL WITH THE SS YOU ARE PUTTING YOURSELF ON ONE LEVEL WITH JOSEPH GOEBBELS? (I suggest you look up that name on Wikipedia, you stupid moron).

There is an old German saying: “If you don’t know shit, you should shut the fuck up!”

I can’t say I know anything about German sayings, but that’s a pretty good saying. Too bad Dan didn’t apply it to himself. I like how he thinks I have somehow never heard anything about the SS or the concentration camps, and that I made my analogy in complete ignorance. Now, I’ll be the first to admit that I am not an expert on Nazi Germany, but Nazi propaganda and Hitler’s regime are not issues I am wholly unfamiliar with. This web site on Nazi propaganda is my favourite: it’s an invaluable look into the Nazi propaganda machine.

My knowledge, however, is completely irrelevant, since Dan’s attempt at associating me with Goebbels is ridiculously flawed. Goebbels was not an ideological enemy of the SS: he was minister of propaganda for the Nazis’ imperialist, fascist regime. I, on the other hand, am an ideological enemy of the US Army and the US imperialist, fascist regime. Therefore, following his analogy, I must be in fact the exact opposite of Goebbels. I can live with that.

There’s only one way I can make any sense of Dan’s addle-headed analogy, but it’s even stupider, so I’m not sure if that’s what he meant. It might make sense if he’s so stupid as to believe that the US is not a imperialist, fascist regime, and that the torture and killing of innocents his troops are doing in Iraq is completely different from the torture and killing of innocents SS troops did in Europe. But the people in Iraq are virtually all Muslim, so I guess that makes it all right, you self-righteous, racist little fuck?

I want to be very clear here: I am decidedly not comparing the level of immorality of SS officers or Soviet officers to that of American troops, although I think that any trained murderer, whatever his nationality, is capable of the worst atrocities. I do not think that the murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis is numerically as ponderous as the Holocaust. But why should I care? At this point, any discussion of which atrocity is worse is bean-counting at best, and disgustingly offensive at worst.

I wrote the paragraph that Dan quoted in order to make clear the point that “they’re just doing what they’re ordered to” is an invalid rationalization in all cases. The SS officers and Soviet officers are just a more blatant demonstration of this fact. But the exact same principle applies to all soldiers everywhere. Whatever crimes they commit cannot be justified by saying “they were following orders.” Being ordered to steal, hurt or kill does not magically give one the right to steal, hurt or kill, especially since the ones issuing the orders do not have that right either. No individual or collection of individuals, whether under orders or not, can have any right to steal, hurt or kill another, because no such right exists.

Dan, I hate you even more than I hate the average war sympathizer, because you use your heritage as a way to rationalize your support of an imperialist, fascist regime. You are a pig. Your grandparents died because of the State and its control over people, because of imperialist fascistic aims, but here you are, still defending the State, still not learning the fucking lesson.

I don’t have any pithy French-Canadian sayings to reply to yours, but here’s something they’d say in reply to your imbecilic comment: “ferme ta gueule, maudit con!”

16 thoughts on “Warhawk associates me with Goebbels.

  1. dan512 August 29, 2007 at 21:44

    Thank you for clarifying your position. At least now I know that the next time I see you, I will spit in your face.
    My grandparents died because back then people like you in France, in England and in the US did nothing to stop the killing until it was too late.
    I want to use the opportunity to thank those European and American soldiers who fought and gave their lives to defeat fascist Germany and save at least some of my relatives from the death camps. And I want to thank the US soldiers today who guarantee that I will not be sent to the death camps like my grandparents and who also protect the rights of assholes like Francois to utter their nonsense on the web, the local town square or wherever they wish in the free Western world. Although I kind of wish he had lived in Duesseldorf in 1938 so that he would truly understand what fascism is, before the SS throws him out of his window on the 7th floor, as they did with my great uncle.

  2. alleee August 29, 2007 at 23:07

    Thanks, Dan, for taking away your Grandparents’ pain and struggle and wearing it like a badge for some pain you pretend to have suffered. Your relatives. My relatives. All of our relatives. And what of all of our relatives who used violence against others and justified it through some notion of the Greater Good? How far back do we really have to go to find that kind of violence? Use your relatives, Dan. That cannot create morality where none exists.

    I’ve heard the “were you there?” argument before–from old people who were in the Hitler Youth. They seem to think it works for them, too. Shame.

  3. nothirdsolution August 29, 2007 at 23:12

    Dan:

    “And I want to thank the US soldiers today who guarantee that I will not be sent to the death camps”

    It was the soldiers of your grandparents’ country that sent them to the death camps and executed them. And it was those soldiers who were charged with protecting the german people. Crazy, huh?

  4. Francois Tremblay August 29, 2007 at 23:26

    Are you seriously THANKING these thugs and murderers for refraining from torturing you? Do you realize how insane you sound right now? What the fuck is wrong with you?

    If you think that you are honouring the memory of your grandparents by defending a fascistic, imperialistic regime, you are either completely depraved or very, very confused. Maybe you’re a troll, I don’t know. But either way, you are completely out of touch with reality.

  5. dan512 August 30, 2007 at 00:48

    My people have been persecuted for thousands of years with people like you looking on and doing nothing, so FUCK YOU! I am not wearing anything like a badge, I am just being cautious, especially about fuckers like you who claim to have morality on their side.
    I know who to trust and who to rely on for protection against the antisemitic scum which makes up half of mankind and which wants to see me hanging on the next tree. It sure won’t be you with your fucking theories about life without government who will protect me from the mob, be it German SA brigades, Russian rural people or Arab Islamists, so shut the fuck up.

  6. Matt August 30, 2007 at 01:01

    Dan — so who do the Iraqi people who are being slaughtered right now have to thank? You thank the American and European soldiers for saving your relatives from the death camps. Who do those at Abu Ghraib get to pay thanks to? Should they thank the American soldier?

    When U.S. Government thugs came into my fathers home, falsely labeled him a “commie”, interogated him for hours, kept him in a jail cell for days, and then for years ruined his life with any possible employer, creditor, etc… should he be thankful he has their “protection”?

    When my Uncle Jack had someone call an anonymous “tip” that he was going to assasinate the president, and without investigation the Secret Service arrested him, interrogated him, followed he and his friends, got him fired from his job, and made his life a living hell… should he be thankful for their ‘protection’?

    You seem to think that your grandparents death, as tragic as it was, somehow makes you an authority on fascism. So let me ask you this: are you thankful to those Soviet soldiers who helped to end the war in 1945?

    Because they themselves became a part of one of the most oppressive and deadly regimes the world has ever seen.

    Welcome to the State — there is no “good State” or “bad State”. There is only those who maintain their own power and supremacy by standing on the backs of others.

    -olly

  7. Matt August 30, 2007 at 01:07

    “German SA brigades, Russian rural people or Arab Islamists, so shut the fuck up.”

    So the American government ISN’T a mob? What defines a mob then?

    Is it when a large number of people make the all the decisions, despite the objections of the minority? (We call it democracy here, but it’s still the same).

    Is it when a system that you have no direct say in makes all the rules and regulations? (We call it the judicial system, and the legislative system).

    Tell me, what exactly defines a mob in your mind?

    -olly

  8. dan512 August 30, 2007 at 05:11

    Do you freaks never wonder why nobody takes you seriously? Do you not see the difference between McCarthy and Heinrich Himmler?

    Do you not realize that if you really lived in a fascist state they would now track your IP address and kill you for what you said here on this website?

  9. raenur August 30, 2007 at 05:32

    Dan, I’m afraid you aren’t looking deep enough. There may be superficial differences in magnitude, but the principle is the same.

  10. nothirdsolution August 30, 2007 at 07:54

    No dan, we don’t realize that.

    So we should be content as long as the mob is only killing other people?

    “When they came for the Jews, I did not speak out,” and all that. When they come for me, there won’t be anyone left to speak out.

  11. moragauth August 30, 2007 at 09:19

    Dan, the common denominator in all the cases you mentioned is that said individuals are statist thugs, whether they be Nazi, Islamist or whatever else. Yet you entrust your safety in the hands of another group of thugs, whose actions so far are on par with those of some of the worst tyrannical regimes out there. And please refrain from playing this “oppressed Jew” card. Use logic, not emotive nonsense.

  12. Matt August 30, 2007 at 10:39

    “Do you freaks never wonder why nobody takes you seriously? Do you not see the difference between McCarthy and Heinrich Himmler?

    Do you not realize that if you really lived in a fascist state they would now track your IP address and kill you for what you said here on this website?”

    Of course there is a difference between Himmler and McCarthy you moron, no one is suggesting otherwise. Look, you have extrapolated yourself into this mess, so stop blaming us for your own black and white version of things.

    What you aren’t willing to see, because you’ve so far drank the Kool Aid, is that government is the root cause of the very problems you blame us for ignoring. Hitler only existed because there was a government for him to use to his advantage. Government is necessary for tyranny to exist.

    So by us trying to teach people to eliminate the engine that causes wars, i.e. government, we are somehow fascist sympathizers?

    My old logic professor would have steam coming out of his ears if he heard you make that argument.

    -olly

  13. theconverted August 30, 2007 at 13:33

    “I know who to trust and who to rely on for protection against the antisemitic scum which makes up half of mankind and which wants to see me hanging on the next tree.”

    That line says it all right there. He is an anti-Muslim scum and a racist. He is as bad as a Nazi. He WANTS the US to institute Abu Ghraib, to kill Iraqis, Afghans and possible Iranians next. He is just like the anti-Semitic Germans and Europeans that allowed the Holocaust to happen.

    I’m quite sure if my grandfather had known a fascist like this was going to be produced, he wouldn’t have fought so hard to liberate Belsen.

    dan512, you are a sad, hateful little man who will tolerate any evil for the sake of perceived safety and revenge. You are exactly what you say you despise. And that makes you a dangerous hypocrite, that must be stopped.

    Well said Francois.

  14. dan512 August 30, 2007 at 14:58

    @Matt

    Try to get away from your Kindergarten-logic that all we have to do is get rid of governments as they are the root of all evil. Try to learn about fascism. The Nazis in Germany were a grassroots-movement, they established paramilitary structures parallel to official police and military, and when the time was right and the government was weak enough they won the elections and took over. The same fascist system could have been established under the old Germanic tribal structures, which knew no government as we have it today. The SA would have done the job.
    Lenin and Trotsky did not have to rely at all on old Czarist governmental or military structures, their revolutionary movement which led Russia and Eastern Europe into a 70-year dark age was a movement by the people and it could have happened just as well in your idealized society where only private landowners exist.
    Islamic fundamentalists, which are a religious type of fascist grassroots movement are slowly undercutting societies in Muslim countries and are establishing parallel military as well as welfare structures for propaganda purposes. They do not need a government and they do not need a military to succeed in their strategy. Read Paul Berman’s book about how Islamism works and what it does to those societies.
    You guys have settled down in your own little fantasy world where we can blame everything on the government and as soon as we get rid of it, things will be fine. I have a surprise for you: we won’t be fine, because you have too many people who are easy to manipulate by those who seek power over others.

    @the converted:

    What? You seem confused. Read a little about Jewish history. Start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews#History_of_the_Jews

  15. Matt August 30, 2007 at 17:20

    @dan: when someone acts like they are in kindergarten, I respond in kind.

    I’m going to respond to one part of your paragraph here, which seems to be the biggest fallacy in your entire analysis:

    “They do not need a government and they do not need a military to succeed in their strategy.”

    This is a non-argument. Islamic fundamentalists are not, by definition, fascists. But even beyond that you are missing the point. Let me lay out your argument here:

    Proposition 1: Aggressor A wants to undercut society, persecute others, etc for their own purposes (whether it’s your “fascist grassroots movement” or your fear of the “anti-semitic mob”, this is what you are laying out).

    Proposition 2: Only a Government has the power, will, etc to defend “the people” against Aggressor A.

    Conclusion: Government is neccessary to defend society against Aggressor A, since it is the only entity with enough resources to do so.

    Sound about right? Here are some problems with your argument. First, in order for this logic to be correct, Aggressor A cannot be a State actor. If Aggressor A IS a State actor you run into the problem of which is the “right” government. In other words, if Aggressor A is a government, and you are arguing only a government has the resources as an entity to defend it’s people, how do you decide when the government has moved from aggressor to defender? What’s the line in the sand? Is a government that restricts communications in the name of security good or bad? Is a government that deals harshly with those that break it’s laws in the name of order good or bad? You see, in order for your arguement to even begin to have merit, and for clear boundaries to be drawn, Aggressor A must be a non-State actor.

    The second problem lies in the second premise, which has permeated all of your posts: that only a Government has the resources and wherewithal to defend against Aggressor A. Do you have any sort of proof for this? Prior to the formation of government, were people simply at the mercy of anyone who came along? By your reasoning, no revolution should have ever succeeded. By your reasoning, the revolutionaries in the 1770’s should have been defeated by the British Empire. By your reasoning, people are incapable of protecting themselves, of spontaneous organization as the need presents itself.

    Finally, you need to answer a couple of questions you’ve been dodging: what is to keep the government from BECOMING Aggressor A? What is the check on that government? And the final question is this:

    What gives a government legitimacy to act? Is it right for a government to do something in my name, against my wishes and will? Is it right for a government to take action that I believe are immoral, and then force me to support it?

    You are arguing for a collective/relativist view of morality here. You are basically saying that the will of the majority defines the morality of its actions.

    Sound familiar? That’s because that was *exactly* what the Nazis claimed. The claim, made over and over by the Nazis, was that in order for society as a whole to survive, the “diseased” portions of society needed to be “cleansed”.

    You are arguing the same tripe that led to the very tragedy that lost your grandparents their lives, along with millions of others.

    As soon as you begin to argue that one collective majority has some moral high ground (and thus a responsibility to take action on that supposed moral high ground), you are no better than the Nazi philosophers and apologists who have, and continue to, justify their actions.

    -olly

  16. dan512 September 1, 2007 at 00:39

    @Matt

    I’m sorry, you seem to believe that I am fundamentally a “war hawk”, as it says in the title of this post, but that was only Matthieu describing me while he did not know what the fuck he was talking about.
    I am absolutely fine with a more isolationist definition of the American military and I doubt as well that the current operations benefit the security of the US or more importantly to me since more imminent the security and survival of Israel and its people. But in very clear cases like the holocaust I definitely see the need for intervention, preferably as back then in the form of a very wide international coalition.
    as to your comment:

    “This is a non-argument. Islamic fundamentalists are not, by definition, fascists.”

    Well, there is not really one definition for fascism, and under many definitions you could surely see Islamic fundamentalists as fascists, but I don’t even care about that very much. They are a strong movement that threatens liberal societies in many regions of the world, that’s enough of a threat to me, because I actually would like people in those societies to be able to enjoy the same freedoms I enjoy.

    “But even beyond that you are missing the point. Let me lay out your argument here:

    Proposition 1: Aggressor A wants to undercut society, persecute others, etc for their own purposes (whether it’s your “fascist grassroots movement” or your fear of the “anti-semitic mob”, this is what you are laying out).

    Proposition 2: Only a Government has the power, will, etc to defend “the people” against Aggressor A.”

    I’m not saying that, I am very open to suggestions for a private protection force that guarantees my freedom and that of my family now in Israel. I just have not seen any practical suggestions yet from you guys, so right now I have to rely on other organizations. There will be no second holocaust, that you have to understand, but I am always open for new ideas. I just don’t hear much from you guys except for theoretical or philosophical discussions.

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